Break Free from the Scripted Trap! with Jeffrey To

Episode Summary

You can find Jeffrey To at:

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffrey-to/

Newsletter: https://speak-up-labs.kit.com/bc096c0a4c

Jeffrey To Podcast Interview

[00:00:00] Kris Ward: Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Win The Hour Win The Day. And I am your host, Kris Ward. And today in the house we have Jeffrey To and he is a storytelling and public speaking coach. And we’re just gonna get right to it and have some fun and really give you the confidence to be able to tell any story that you need to in your business.

’cause we do know it’s all about storytelling. Welcome to the show, Jeffrey. 

[00:00:24] Jeffrey To: Thank you so much for having me, Kris. I am so honored and so excited to be here. 

[00:00:29] Kris Ward: Okay, let’s just hop into it. That’s what we’re known for here. So when you talk about storytelling, where do we start? What does storytelling mean to you, or what are the biggest misconceptions with storytelling? What, what do, how do you see the world different differently as a storyteller? 

[00:00:45] Jeffrey To: Yes. Let’s start with what I mean when I say storytelling, because I think there’s a lot of ways that people oftentimes use storytelling in business and it’s oftentimes conflated or used synonymously with like public speaking, coaching.

[00:00:59] Kris Ward: [00:01:00] Okay. 

[00:01:00] Jeffrey To: Personal branding with videography. For me, when I say storytelling, I mean turning any information into experience. 

[00:01:09] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:01:09] Jeffrey To: So any information to experience, whether that is through a presentation, a video, through words. I write a lot too. But the, for me, the most important thing about storytelling is how do you get what you know to make people act?

And a lot of people,,. I’m a scientist, so I work with a lot of academics. I come from an academic background. That’s I did my PhD in psychology and a big issue in academia is that everyone is super smart, but nobody knows 

[00:01:45] Kris Ward: can explain anything. Yeah. 

[00:01:46] Jeffrey To: Nobody knows how to talk to people.

Yeah. Really where I came, that’s where I came from. I came from a background of really smart folks who have so much value to offer the world, and yet nothing happens to their research because they [00:02:00] don’t know how to explain their research, how to present their research in a way that makes people care.

And you know what really sucks, Kris, is that oftentimes the scientists that I work with, if you look at all the huge podcasters, all the huge like big names on Spotify, Joe Rogan, Andrew Hoberman, et cetera, et cetera, they often talk about their research on their behalf just because they know how to talk.

You know what I mean? So that’s why i’m so passionate about what I do.

[00:02:31] Kris Ward: I find it too, what happens is you could one of the things I find Netflix is particularly good at documentaries, right? Yes. And you can watch something that you thought, I have no interest in this. And suddenly I am like in part three of a Netflix series going, huh?

This is, yeah. So you also can make something what we would deem to be uninteresting. Interesting. If you tell a story. 

[00:02:55] Jeffrey To: A hundred percent. 

[00:02:56] Kris Ward: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:02:57] Jeffrey To: And I think there’s nothing in this world that is inherently uninteresting. 

[00:03:00] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:03:01] Jeffrey To: Like I, I work with people who do research in cancer research, in plastics, art history, whatever, but there’s nothing inherently uninteresting.

What’s the most important thing is how do you tell the story of that thing you do. So just to go back to your example, Kris, that Netflix documentary, the reason why you cared about it so much is because they knew how to tell the story Yeah. Of whatever it was going on. 

[00:03:26] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:03:27] Jeffrey To: Same thing with movies. Disney movies. Why do we watch a movie for two hours? And we remember all the little details. We remember what happened to Elsa when she went on that castle. We remember how she felt when she got be betrayed by, I forgot his name, but that that Prince Charming. We remember all these little details and yet if you think about it, there’s way more information objectively speaking in a two hour movie than in a one page paper.

So I think that [00:04:00] for me is like the beauty of story like story is, I love the analogy of story is very much the jpeg of ideas in the same way that like JPEGs store information about your pictures in a very compressed format story is a way that you can store your ideas in a format that other people can understand. And not just understand, but use it for their own lives. 

[00:04:29] Kris Ward: Okay. You brought some really interesting points there. ’cause first of all, you lost me on Disney. ’cause I don’t know why they always kill the parents five minutes into the movie, but that’s another story. What the heck is with that?

That’s so true. I don’t, yeah. But okay. But you are right on the grounds of, wow, we can walk away from a two hour movie and retain more than we might in a one minute video. That’s boring and not of interest to us, or no storytelling. Funny enough, a lot of my clients will tell me that I I often will use an example analogy or a [00:05:00] story to tell somebody something, right?

And I think I do that well, but yet I think there is something in my mind where if I’m just talking to you and I’m trying to nail down a point, it’s not hard for me to pull a reference of a story, but yet I think I pull away from that in telling a video or writing a post. ’cause I feel like either I didn’t earn your attention or maybe I won’t keep your attention.

Whereas when I’m talking one-on-one, I like, here’s a quick example. I was struggling with a client and she was saying, she was like so many people thinking she either had imposter syndrome or she thought that is she enough experience to, does she have enough experience to be writing this book or selling her services, right?

Yeah. And I said to her. Let me tell you a story, and I said I, I went to my friend’s house and her son was in junior kindergarten and he’s four years old. 

[00:05:50] Jeffrey To: Yeah. 

[00:05:50] Kris Ward: And he came home with a piece of paper in his hand and it was telling about pizza day. He handed his mother the flyer and he said. You know it’s pizza day tomorrow and she read it ’cause [00:06:00] she’s a functioning adult and she could read and she said 

[00:06:02] Jeffrey To: yes.

[00:06:02] Kris Ward: Hey, no, pizza day is Friday. And he looked at her and he said, no, mom, you, it’s not, it’s tomorrow. The seniors told me, now the seniors are five. So he’s four and the senior kindergartens are five. Yeah. He believes more in the people closest to him that know more than his book reading mother who drove herself to work because 

[00:06:26] Jeffrey To: yeah, 

[00:06:26] Kris Ward: that gap is too big for him to think that she knows what she’s talking about.

So I said to my client, you only need to know sometimes somebody who’s more of an expert is too big of a gap for your clients. They want somebody to get closer to you. Yes. Now, but my thing is. I think a lot of us then we go online and say we should tell stories, but it doesn’t translate as well written.

Or you think you don’t have the time to tell it in video. Interesting. So I think I would never call myself a storyteller, but my clients say I do tie down points really well with stories, but then I feel like it’s a different machine that you craft [00:07:00] when you’re talking versus then you get caught up in presenting, right?

Yeah. And then you’re not, then you lost the beauty of the story ’cause now you’re presenting it. 

[00:07:08] Jeffrey To: Yes. Oh my gosh. You just raised so many interesting points and I’m like, where do I start? First, let’s go to the first thing you mentioned, which I found was really interesting, which was the fact that I think you mentioned when you tell stories to people one-on-one.

Yeah. It’s a fundamentally different experience from telling a story, let’s say on a LinkedIn post. 

[00:07:26] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:07:26] Jeffrey To: And let’s go deeper into that. Why do I know? You mentioned that one reason is maybe you feel like they feel farther from you when you tell a LinkedIn post story versus a one-on-one conversation. Is there anything else that’s like stopping you from telling your story. 

[00:07:42] Kris Ward: I think I’ve recently learned by somebody really wise, Sarra, the, and she was on our podcast and what I thought was writing is a different skill and we tend to get watered down in writing with school because we read textbooks and they teach us to write a certain boring way.

And we now know on LinkedIn that we’re supposed to write like we [00:08:00] talk and all that other stuff. But when I say I can jump around that story and maybe get lost in the story. Yeah. And you still will stay with me. ‘Cause the tone of my voice, or I’m only, taking up 30 seconds or a minute in a conversation.

Yeah. So that real estate is longer on LinkedIn. It’s oh, now I want you to read this post and there’s a thousand other posts, but you and I are talking and there’s no one else in the room, so you have to pay attention if I keep it at halfway. Interesting, right? 

[00:08:24] Jeffrey To: Yes. 

[00:08:25] Kris Ward: And then I thought.

Writing is a different talent. There are people who write drama and write comedy, but just ’cause you are funny in person doesn’t mean you write comedy yes. So I think then we just start to overthink the storytelling. So I know I use it well in my teachings, but I forget to use it as a discipline.

[00:08:43] Jeffrey To: Yes. 

[00:08:43] Kris Ward: Anywhere else? 

[00:08:44] Jeffrey To: Yes. And you know what, I wanna jump in that point right there because a lot of people don’t know this, which is that the way you write and the way you speak draw from different like areas of your brain. And so oftentimes with the people I work with, when they start their speeches with a written script.

They memorize it and then they rehearse it. They sound extremely robotic and inauthentic because you don’t realize that writing is a different mode of expression compared to speech. 

And so in the same way that you feel like when you write you express yourself differently than when you’re in a conversation with me.

It’s the same kind of thing when you write, you have a different voice. You’re using your writing voice. Yeah. When you’re speaking, you’re using your speaking voice, and so I think the advice that you should write, the way you speak. I get where it’s coming from, but also you should develop that writing voice that’s unique to you that makes people want to keep reading.

A lot of people approach LinkedIn posts like writing with that same I don’t know how to describe it, but when you, when it’s, there’s like a style in LinkedIn. 

[00:09:52] Kris Ward: Yeah. Yeah. ‘

[00:09:52] Jeffrey To: cause a lot of people overuse it and oftentimes it’s like that ChatGPT, there’s and honestly, I don’t know if you know this, but here’s the [00:10:00] one thing that’s gonna completely change your mind about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And it’s that’s, it’s obviously, it’s written away to hook our attention, but it sounds incredibly inauthentic.

Okay. And also, it doesn’t sound like someone actually sat down to sit with the words to write it out. I think what I see from the posts that I’ve read that were super successful is they have their unique writing voice that isn’t necessarily the same as how they speak, but it’s a very unique writing voice and there’s a hundred percent their storytelling going on.

I know a lot of people who write on LinkedIn who tell beautiful stories about maybe something that happened to them when they were younger and how that relates to their work. So I think like all that is to say is that writing on LinkedIn is a different skill than having conversations with someone one-on-one.

And I think if you can master storytelling in [00:11:00] writing, you can get way farther with the written posts and still use storytelling to really captivate people’s attention. 

[00:11:08] Kris Ward: Yeah, that’s a good point. And I do think it’s not something I think about when I’m talking. I’ll give examples on the podcast, I’ll give examples in life, it’s not a problem and I always have a story, but yet when I have to write it, I see it as a discipline or something like, oh yes, I have five things I should do.

And I on Mondays, I should tell storytelling on LinkedIn. I think, I guess we overthink it and make it too analytic. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:11:31] Jeffrey To: That’s a, that’s it. 

[00:11:32] Kris Ward: Okay. Okay. What are some other things we’re doing wrong when it comes to storytelling? 

[00:11:39] Jeffrey To: I think when it comes to storytelling, the one thing I’ve noticed going back to the idea of scripts, so when I started my journey as a public speaker.

I remember my first speech like it was yesterday. I first started doing my speeches when I was an undergrad in a club called Toastmasters, which is a club for public speaking. 

[00:12:01] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:12:01] Jeffrey To: And when I first started my journey, I remember that I had to write my speech down word for word. I, it took me like days to memorize it, and then even when I got to presenting my speech.

I needed my script, like either in my pocket or close to me where I can feel it and see it, just to feel like I had control. And you know what’s funny, Kris, right? Is that I remember the first couple speech that I ever did. Like I memorized my speech perfectly, and yet I still blanked. I still forgot my lines.

I still blanked. I still lost my train of thought. And so the one thing 

[00:12:43] Kris Ward: that did you find that made it dry? 

[00:12:45] Jeffrey To: Absolutely. 

[00:12:46] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:12:47] Jeffrey To: Absolutely. I, and it’s and like I, and it was still me, like it was still written by me, like it, right? Eight years ago, there was no ChatGPT. It was still written by me, but it was still incredibly dry because that, again, that version of me that I [00:13:00] write on paper is different from the version of me that exists when I’m present in a conversation or in a room with you, 

[00:13:08] Kris Ward: and also now one part of your brain is making sure you get those words in that org. Yes. Instead of the focus of the story. I remember exactly grade eight, they used to have us do public speaking every year from grade six on you had to write a speech, whatever.

[00:13:22] Jeffrey To: Yeah. 

[00:13:23] Kris Ward: And I was in martial arts growing up and so I did my speech in grade eight on TaeKwonDo and whatever, and it was like a four minute speech, which was really long in grade eight. And so I won for my class, and they wanted me to go up in front of the school. I’m like I, wow. But I was like I don’t know.

Like I didn’t write it out. I just talked. I had a couple points on a card. Yeah. I knew what I was talking about, so I talked, 

[00:13:44] Jeffrey To: yes. 

[00:13:45] Kris Ward: And so then, yes. Okay, can you go in front of the school? I’m like, Hey, I don’t know if I can do the same thing twice. I’m not about to experiment in front of us.

Student body of 2000 people. But it, but they, I did better than anybody in the class. ’cause I was talking Yes. Something I knew. [00:14:00] 

[00:14:00] Jeffrey To: Yes. Oh my gosh. And I wanna highlight something that you said. You were talking about something that you knew 

[00:14:06] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:14:06] Jeffrey To: And that for, that’s a distinction. There’s memory on one hand.

Yeah. And then there’s understanding, a lot of people approach speech from memory, but when you have understanding of what you want to say, when you know it by your because you’re an expert because you know it, because you’ve experienced whatever. Yeah. You’re speaking about you don’t need to draw from from memory. 

[00:14:28] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:14:28] Jeffrey To: You have an understanding of that experience in your mind that you just have to tap into when you speak. 

[00:14:35] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:14:36] Jeffrey To: And so that’s why I am, for me, when I coach my clients, I am, so I’m like super, a hundred percent into this idea of getting that unscripted confidence, okay? Like not approaching either a pitch, a keynote, a talk with all your memorized notes and your paragraphs, or whatever the heck go into it with only the key ideas, key stories, key examples, key transitions, and let your heart and your brain fill in the rest. Okay. And you know what’s funny is that nine times out of 10, having compared to the nine people who memorize their speeches and rehearse obsessively, the person who shows up as a human being and shows up imperfect who stumbles, who maybe blanks on a couple words here and there. They’re liked by people so much more because they know they’re speaking to them in the present moment. They’re not speaking to the version of them that they’ve created by typing on a Microsoft Word document the night before.

[00:15:35] Kris Ward: Yeah. I heard once on a podcast they were talking about that and they gave an example and they said they had five people they had five people quoting a line, whatever. Yes, the line is right. And they just asked for the people, they stopped them, whatever the dog crossed the street, the dog crossed the street, whatever. Yes. And then there was one person in there that who sincerely said it. And 

[00:15:57] Jeffrey To: yeah, 

[00:15:57] Kris Ward: then the others were actors and they [00:16:00] just asked random people on the street and everyone got it right, who was natural and who were the actors. And they were paid actors. So the point is, that’s their job. They had to say one sentence and paid actor.

But people could hear when it was really a true statement versus something rehearsed even when it was a professional rehearsing it. 

[00:16:18] Jeffrey To: Yes. Yeah. And there’s psychological studies on this. 

[00:16:21] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:16:21] Jeffrey To: Like you can tell, like even let’s say for example with smiling, 

[00:16:25] Kris Ward: right? 

[00:16:26] Jeffrey To: People don’t know this, but when you fake smile versus when you have a authentic smile, people can very accurately identify when you fake your smile, even if it, 

[00:16:36] Kris Ward: yeah, 

[00:16:36] Jeffrey To: on the surface might look like an authentic smile.

In the same way people just know when you are speaking from a place of memory versus from a place of understanding. 

[00:16:47] Kris Ward: Yeah.

[00:16:47] Jeffrey To: It’s just, 

[00:16:48] Kris Ward: I don’t, oh, hold on. That’s important. You said two things today, story to experience and then memory to understanding. Yes. I think those are really big transitions that are incredibly important because we just think oh, I wanna get the message so I better do this. [00:17:00] And I did have to learn, say, doing videos not to present at people, but talk to them. But I think your story to experience and then you know, not coming from memory, I think those are powerful realignment.

[00:17:14] Jeffrey To: Yes. And there, and it sounds really simple, but I have to say Kris, it is not easy. I’ve worked with people in their fifties, high powered lawyers, people who are incredibly smart, who have insane cvs, who still get paralyzed by fear, by the idea of going in front of a panel and speaking off of purely their understanding.

[00:17:39] Kris Ward: Right? 

[00:17:40] Jeffrey To: And yet, when I’ve. And when they’ve done it, they’ve realized that Holy sh, holy crap. 

[00:17:46] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:17:47] Jeffrey To: I thought my script was going to give me freedom when in reality 

[00:17:51] Kris Ward: yeah, 

[00:17:51] Jeffrey To: it was controlling me. 

[00:17:53] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:17:53] Jeffrey To: And when they realize that, it’s holy crap. Like I can just speak from I can just speak like I’m talking to a real [00:18:00] person.

And when I do that, I connect with my audience so much more. And so 

[00:18:05] Kris Ward: Yeah, I hear from a lot of people about this podcast. I’ll get a lot of compliments about they feel like. They’re in the room that they just are listening to two people have a conversation. They feel like I was in the room with you and you’re just talking to somebody, and I get to overhear the conversation.

Yeah. And that’s really interesting to me because it is flawed. I do interrupt you to make a point and we, I do fumble some words and stuff, but it’s conversational. Yes. It’s, and so even though it’s very flawed, it’s meaningful to them because it’s sincere. 

[00:18:34] Jeffrey To: Yes. Exactly. 

[00:18:35] Kris Ward: So I guess the bigger message is really just get outta your way.

Get outta your own way. 

[00:18:39] Jeffrey To: A hundred percent. 

[00:18:40] Kris Ward: Yeah, 

[00:18:41] Jeffrey To: a hundred percent. And it’s like people are so scared of presenting a version of themselves that is flawed, imperfect. What’s really funny is that people want that version. Like they want that flawed and imperfect version of you.

Versus that scripted perfect delivery like Ted Talk persona that you created for yourself. And then [00:19:00] it’s like that. And that’s, again, that sounds so easy and simple, but that for me, it took me years to learn. ’cause it’s not intuitive people. I’m a perfectionist at heart. I also want to perfect every single thing that I say and get every idea across in the quote unquote perfect way.

[00:19:18] Kris Ward: Right? 

[00:19:18] Jeffrey To: But ultimately, what I realized is that there is no perfect way, and if anything, the best way you can communicate your ideas is by starting from what you know, starting from what you’ve experienced, starting from your understanding. And oftentimes that is enough to carry a really meaningful conversation with someone that they’re willing to listen to you.

[00:19:46] Kris Ward: And so what about when we have other people and talking about storytelling and then we get into the arc? Yeah. And this and that, and the construct of a storytelling. So maybe like that story I told you about, the kid in kindergarten with pizza day. 

[00:19:59] Jeffrey To: Yeah. 

[00:19:59] Kris Ward: I [00:20:00] don’t, I don’t know the mechanics of that story.

I just told it to make a point. Yeah. So when do we need to know that? When is it too much kind of deal? 

[00:20:09] Jeffrey To: Oof. I love your question because the science and the mechanics of storytelling is something that I am like obsessed with. I think like for an average li like for the average listener, I don’t, I personally think you don’t even need to know that.

[00:20:24] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:20:24] Jeffrey To: Because here’s the thing, like we are natural storytellers, 

[00:20:28] Kris Ward: okay? 

[00:20:29] Jeffrey To: Storytelling is it’s literally in our DNA, if you think about. Like the, the, like the version of human beings that existed like a millennia I, not a millennia ago, but like the pre-human civilization. People were telling stories.

In the caveman days. 

[00:20:47] Kris Ward: Right. 

[00:20:47] Jeffrey To: To communicate their ideas. Like storytelling has survived all of these different eras and decades. 

[00:20:54] Kris Ward: That’s right. And the cave people did not have a story arc. 

[00:20:58] Jeffrey To: No. 

[00:20:58] Kris Ward: Yeah. Okay. 

[00:20:58] Jeffrey To: They didn’t. Exactly. And [00:21:00] it still survived. And so

[00:21:01] Kris Ward: yeah. 

[00:21:01] Jeffrey To: What I’m. 

[00:21:02] Kris Ward: Sit down, Harold, there was no point to your story.

She by the fire. Yes. 

[00:21:08] Jeffrey To: What I’m trying to say is that like we oftentimes underestimate 

[00:21:12] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:21:13] Jeffrey To: Just how good we are at storytelling. Yeah. Like I could throw a framework, like right now, I could do it in my sleep, but people underestimate the fact that you can tell a story right now that people are gonna listen to.

Like I have a per, I have a client who is such a good rA contour like a good ra, I dunno what the English word is, but like story ra contour. Okay. In real life. And like when it comes to, like, when you’re having conversation with them, but when it comes to like delivering a speech, you just loses that.

[00:21:41] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:21:42] Jeffrey To: Yo, just do whatever you did with me, but in front of 10 other people and you’re gonna be fine. 

[00:21:47] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:21:48] Jeffrey To: You learn about you don’t need to learn about the contact setting, the… the arc, the hero’s cli, like the climax and all that stuff. Just tell it how you told me your story.

[00:21:58] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:21:58] Jeffrey To: And that’s gonna be [00:22:00] more than perfect, but a lot of people don’t know that. Like they probably, a lot of people think that they have to like really drill down on the mechanics of how a story works when in reality. It’s like the most fundamental human skill that we have. You can tell a story right now.

Yeah. 

[00:22:17] Kris Ward: So what’s the biggest part of your work then? Simplifying it, getting people out of your way, their own way. What’s the biggest part of what you do? 

[00:22:25] Jeffrey To: The biggest, so I love you. I love that you mentioned simplifying and getting out of your own way. I do both. 

[00:22:31] Kris Ward: Okay. Okay. I simplify the. So I, so first of all, I have to mention that I work with technical professionals.

Okay. People who are either from academic backgrounds or from heavily like technical fields like AI, computer science, software engineering, robotics. 

Yes. ’cause what makes you smart does not make you interesting. So they probably need you. Absolutely. Okay. 

[00:22:54] Jeffrey To: Absolutely. And people who come from those fields have never [00:23:00] learned how to get out of their own way in telling the story of what they’ve been working on for their entire, like academic careers.

[00:23:09] Kris Ward: Right? 

[00:23:10] Jeffrey To: And so what I teach them is, first of all, how can you simplify whatever you say whatever your research is through storytelling.

That’s the simplification part. And the second thing is I help them get over that fear of needing a script or notes when delivering their presentations.

[00:23:34] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:23:35] Jeffrey To: The thing is the, I’ve seen this pattern over and over again. The smarter you are. It just so happens that the more likely that you want control, 

[00:23:45] Kris Ward: okay. 

[00:23:45] Jeffrey To: The smarter you are, the more likely it is that you want to be able to feel like you can control a situation. And oftentimes what that looks like is having a beautiful slide deck with all the sentences laid out, having the speaker notes with literally every, [00:24:00] everything you’re about to say, or having a extremely fleshed out script with every single word that you’re about to memorize.

And so what I teach people is that thing that you think is giving you control, is actually controlling you. Okay. And so you can practice going in front of a stage and telling the story of their business purely from their heart. And nine times out of 10 that that thing that they present me is like better than whatever version they have before.

[00:24:32] Kris Ward: Right. 

[00:24:33] Jeffrey To: Yeah. 

[00:24:34] Kris Ward: And that makes sense. ’cause I’ve been to many of seminars or whatever and you can tell within seconds that somebody’s on stage. You may be smart, but I am bored. 

[00:24:42] Jeffrey To: So boring. 

[00:24:42] Kris Ward: Yeah. You’re just like, 

[00:24:43] Jeffrey To: why are you here if you’re not, make me learn. 

[00:24:47] Kris Ward: Just white noise in the background, right? Yeah. And then when somebody is talking and telling a story and they’re personable and you feel like you know them and they’re interesting.

[00:24:55] Jeffrey To: Yeah. 

[00:24:55] Kris Ward: So it’s really getting outta your own way and just talking. 

[00:24:59] Jeffrey To: [00:25:00] Yes. 

[00:25:00] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:25:00] Jeffrey To: Absolutely. Absolutely. And. Granted, there are techniques that you can learn. Okay? So I always start off with just allowing people to tell their stories raw without me teaching them anything yet. But there’s definitely things that you can learn and use in your own work.

Let me give you an example. 

[00:25:18] Kris Ward: Okay? 

[00:25:18] Jeffrey To: So for example in storytelling there’s like different, there’s different like ways you can. You can tell the same story. Yeah. So one of them is called the before after. 

[00:25:30] Kris Ward: Right. 

[00:25:30] Jeffrey To: So for example, three years ago I had ugly skin. Three years ago my entire face was dotted with acne and pimples and black spots.

Now my skin is completely clear. I don’t have acne and I feel way more confident. Do you notice how there was like a before and there was an after? Yeah. 

[00:25:51] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:25:51] Jeffrey To: That’s one example of a story structure that you can use. Yeah, for your presentations. Another thing is [00:26:00] when you’re telling a story, it’s being really deliberate about connecting the dots.

So oftentimes, and I think you mentioned this on LinkedIn, about LinkedIn is like people are like, here are the five things that you need to know as an expert in micro SAAS. Yeah. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And it’s what about rather than having the five things as completely separate points, you can connect the dots and think about why are you presenting those points in that particular order.

[00:26:30] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:26:30] Jeffrey To: Is it, are you starting off with the first thing, because it’s the first thing in the logical sequence? Are you ending off the last thing because it’s the last thing in the logical sequence. Like people don’t think about that, but 

[00:26:42] Kris Ward: Right. 

[00:26:43] Jeffrey To: Order in which you present your information also tells you a lot about what that thing is.

[00:26:49] Kris Ward: And I think too, I know one thing I had to learn was, yeah, when I tell you a story, if I’m telling you a story and it’s fine, I have your attention and your time but sometimes you need to clean up that story [00:27:00] if it’s gonna be written or it’s gonna be on LinkedIn. Where I might say with the story of my friends, I was going over to my friend’s house because my washing machine overloaded.

And when I was there, her son came in with the pizza flyer. But you’re telling the story before the story I, I was in my sister’s car because my car was in the shop and the tire went flat. That we don’t need that. We just need you to go, oh my gosh. There was a rumbling and the tire went flat and I didn’t know what was happening.

So I’ve also, yeah, sometimes you have to learn how to clean it up and get to the point instead of telling your life story. 

[00:27:29] Jeffrey To: Yes. 

[00:27:29] Kris Ward: Yeah, 

[00:27:29] Jeffrey To: a hundred percent. And that, cleaning up, there’s a word for it. It’s called skipping the context. 

[00:27:35] Kris Ward: Context. Oh, okay. 

[00:27:36] Jeffrey To: A lot of people, when they approach their stories, they give way too much context.

[00:27:41] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:27:41] Jeffrey To: Give an example. Like I once worked with someone who, when they were telling their life story, they were like, I was born in this hospital in India, and then when I was four years old, I went into this high. When I went to this elementary school and I was seven years old, I moved from this elementary.

Come on. No one cares. 

[00:27:56] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:27:57] Jeffrey To: Yeah. I love you as a person, but no one is gonna [00:28:00] care that you went through all these life stages. Yeah. You have to go straight to the one event that made you who you are and start there. Don’t start from like your birth 

[00:28:12] Kris Ward: Yes. 

[00:28:13] Jeffrey To: Moment before the event happened.

[00:28:16] Kris Ward: In my family. That’s when they call you Ruben. ’cause my grandfather would be like, oh my gosh, that we don’t need to know all that. Ruben, just like he would tell you what the don’t, he’d open a door to a story and tell you how the doorknob was built and you’re like, okay, Reuben, move this story along. So that is not a compliment if you hear yourself being called Reuben.

Okay, Jeffrey, we could talk to you all day. Yeah. Where can people find more of your brilliance? 

[00:28:40] Jeffrey To: Where can people find all my brilliance? I have a LinkedIn slash Jeffrey to Okay. That is where I post to most often. 

[00:28:48] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:28:48] Jeffrey To: I also have a newsletter if you wanna find it. It’s in any of my LinkedIn posts.

Just go underneath. In the comment section, it’s linked there. You can click on it, you can sign up. I post everything [00:29:00] about what I know about storytelling every single week. It’s all based in science. It’s all based on real experience, and I guarantee you, it’s not the stuff that you can find in like a public speaking coach.

Yeah. Yeah. On a TED blog, for example. And that’s pretty much it for now. Maybe I’m 

[00:29:15] Kris Ward: fantastic. Yeah. No, we’ll make sure we get that in the show notes so we can tell there’s a, 

[00:29:19] Jeffrey To: please, 

[00:29:20] Kris Ward: there’s a different framework here, a different substance than what we’ve heard before. So make sure everyone you share this with a business buddy.

There’s all kinds of content here. Don’t have people banging around by themselves. So I will see you in the next episode and thank you again, Jeffrey. 

[00:29:34] Jeffrey To: Thank you so much, Kris.