How To Avoid Mistakes In Building Your Team! With Dan McPherson

Episode Summary

Dan McPherson had a full and impressive team in the corporate world. He thought he had it all figured out when he started his business. He knew how to leverage his time! But, he was wrong!  Listen in as he shares his rookie mistakes when starting his team so you can avoid them. 

Learn:
-the two most important things when hiring
-what you need to know about yourself first
-the one big reason entrepreneurs fail

Dan McPherson, International Speaker, Business and Personal Development Coach, and CEO of Leaders Must Lead, is on a mission to help Creatives and Entrepreneurs create and grow profit and understand that Dreams ARE Real. With more than 25 years’ experience in corporate roles leading teams of up to 2000 and responsible for more than $150M in revenue, Dan is a recognized expert in leadership, sales, and business strategy.

Through his Dreams ARE Real Podcast, Leaders Must Learn Mastermind, Foundations of Success Training, and powerful 1-1 coaching, Dan helps entrepreneurs around the world from musicians and artists to chiropractors, coaches, retailers, and beyond experience success and accomplish their goals.

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Check out the Outsourcing Playbook For Busy Entrepreneurs here: https://winthehourwintheday.com/outsourcing-playbook

Dan McPherson Podcast Recording

[00:13:42] Kris Ward: Hey everyone. Welcome to the show. Chris ward. When the hour, when the day and today we have Dan Mick. And in the house, we’re super excited.

[00:13:58] Dan is a international speaker and a business coach and personal development, and he is good to really dive in with a conversation about team building. Dan’s got a lot of experience in the corporate world with team building and then. This is a really exciting part, talking about the journey as entrepreneur, building his team and the lessons that he, you know, learned and took for granted.

[00:14:21] So I’m really excited to dive in and ask some really, you know, give us a scoop, give us the backstory, give us everything we need to learn about the pain points of starting and growing a team. Dan, welcome to the show. 

[00:14:33] Dan Mcpherson: Thank you so much, Chris. I’m really excited to be here and excited to share this story, even though it reveals some pain that I went through.

[00:14:41] Kris Ward: Well, you know what, I’m so glad that you’re open to this because this is the part that I really want people to understand is, you know, this whole idea of, you know, a solo preneur or, you know, a lone Wolf, all that stuff, like nothing of any level of success is done by yourself. It just isn’t. And the problem for most of us is by the time we finally realized, Hey, Doing it by myself thinking I could learn it all or save money or whatever, noble, you know, reasons we have the pain points Chesser, like you just suffer so much. 

[00:15:14] So I’m really glad that you’re open to sort of sharing your, your stumbles and struggles along the way. Well, 

[00:15:20] Dan Mcpherson: I definitely am. And I, if I can do anything to share these examples and share what I’ve been through to give others a bit of a shortcut and maybe give them an opportunity to avoid that pain, I’m all in.

[00:15:33] Kris Ward: Okay. So we know you were, uh, you know, phenomenal, you led big teams in the corporate world. And a lot of us, you know, can’t really relate to that cause it’s like, okay, you’ve got resources, you’ve got all these benefits that we don’t have when you’ve got a smaller organization. So that part we’re not going to dive into too much.

[00:15:49] Cause you always think when you’re looking at a bigger company that they have endless resources, endless money, even though that’s not the case. Right. So, but then you went out on your own and you worked on your own for quite some time. Before you realized, Hey, I need a team. Right? The first question is, is when do you start that team?

[00:16:07] Right? 

[00:16:08] Dan Mcpherson: Right. And for me, I, I would say I started that team too late and I think that’s true for most entrepreneurs. It is certainly for the clients that I, that I work with and I encourage them the sooner, the better. In fact, I encourage you to start having some component of a team as close to day one as possible.

[00:16:27] Kris Ward: Do you hear that Dan? Those are angels

[00:16:32] because I get that all the time. People think I’m just pushing it because it’s me, but here’s the deal like, first of all, like I don’t get a percentage of the team you hire, so yes. Do I have services to offer to help you in that journey? Of course, but my life moves on whether you suffer in isolation at two o’clock in the morning and five o’clock in the morning or whatever my life goes on and people say to me, Oh, you don’t understand my business’s new, or I’m not there financially yet, or whatever I’m telling you, listen, the like the day you think you are going to start a business is sort of like the day you need to.

[00:17:05] I figure, well, who will be my first team member, right? Doesn’t mean full time doesn’t mean crazy, you know, all kinds of expenses, but you’re right. Day one is really, when you want to start having someone, some resource, like you need a tool, you need a resource. That’s a, that’s a team, right? 

[00:17:21] Dan Mcpherson: It is. And I also think that so many people, myself included at times have used.

[00:17:27] Math meaning the lack of finances to say, I shouldn’t hire a team or I shouldn’t begin building one. And in fact, I would flip that math on its head and say, the math shows that you are silly. If you don’t, if you look for example, let’s say you’re not very good at social media. That would be me for a lot of my career.

[00:17:45] A lot of my career, if you’re not okay, and a task will take you six hours to do. But for $10 or $15, you can find someone that it’ll take an hour for them to do it in that six hours. Can you for your business create 10 or $15 if you can’t, you’re probably not looking at it. Right. But that math alone says you need to have help early and often.

[00:18:10] Kris Ward: Oh, yeah. And I know that people think, Oh, well, my time is free and I’m saving money. And, you know, I had a mentor of mine explained, like, you have to think of your company. Like you always have to replace yourself. Like if you had to hire someone for sales, how much would that cost you? So then you should be the salesperson out there doing that.

[00:18:29] Cause you can’t afford the sales person that early in the game and maybe never. But you can’t afford the person doing the back door, admin work and social media for, you know, 30 bucks a week or something. So, absolutely right. That leaves you right. Generate income, generating time. Like you can go out and do stuff that would create income.

[00:18:48] That’s a whole. Purpose. I think 

[00:18:50] Dan Mcpherson: I agree. And in fact, one of the biggest mistakes that I made that led to me getting into pain and trouble was that I was doing, doing the things that I needed not to be doing way too much, which meant I couldn’t be doing the things I didn’t need to be doing. I couldn’t be doing income, generating activities, network activities that that would provide a longterm future benefit.

[00:19:13] And instead I was living. In the task of the day that swallowed me up. And we all know that when we sit down to do a task that is suddenly five tasks and six hours later. And that’s assuming we don’t end up looking at cat videos on the internet. 

[00:19:28] Kris Ward: Yes. I know. I remember one time and I used to have this, this ridiculous.

[00:19:33] You know, like, I don’t know, Sundays was my ketchup dare. I would work in, I kind of thought days where I didn’t have appointments or, you know, I could get relaxed in front of the computer. Like that was a day off. Right. So I had to do some research or something on a Sunday that I needed not to be rushed and take my time.

[00:19:47] And two hours later, uh, this has been a years ago, two hours later, I had bought my first pair of earrings off the 

[00:19:53] Dan Mcpherson: internet. 

[00:19:54] Kris Ward: And I was like, okay. So I don’t think that’s working. Right. So yes. The cat videos, even if you don’t have a cat, cat videos are very seducing, you get sucked in real quick. So, okay. So yes, that’s what we call it.

[00:20:08] Damaging overhead that we think, you know, Oh my gosh, I’m not an expense. And that’s overhead that you have no idea of. And then I often talk about too, is delaying opportunities, right? And diminishing your income. These are three areas that really just. Really you’re bleeding money. And you just don’t realize that because you haven’t started your team.

[00:20:26] So you said, you finally said, okay, I’m in overwhelm. I think I need to start a team. Is that correct? 

[00:20:32] Dan Mcpherson: Yeah. So I knew what, from what I started, that I needed some help and I had worked with a virtual assistant who was tremendous, but looking at a more a more formal team looking at really gathering my people close to me.     

[00:20:47] I was waiting until the right time. It’s and I found that it’s a little bit like waiting to have kids until you can afford them. You’ll never get there. Right? Yeah. And I got to a spot where I just said, Hey, and the pressure of this, the overwhelm of this is so much. I wonder if it’s the right time. And so I stepped back and I listed all the different things that needed to be done.

[00:21:10] And I realized that I, that I had 3000 hours of work estimated that wasn’t done. Now that means I realized that way too late because that’s more than a full year for a full time person. And what I recognize that as well. Okay. Now I, I, not only do I need somebody, I need somebody and that’s not. Yeah. Or the spot where you want to start from, because you’re starting from pain instead of planning.

[00:21:37] Kris Ward: Yes. And I call that hysterical, Chris. So what happens then is you now need this person and you’re not showing up with your best game because you’re in a rushed, hysterical state, and any questions that they ask or the training process that should be so much more smoother onboarding. What I do is you see, I mean, many years ago, you’re clenching your teeth in smiling and going, Oh yeah, we gotta move faster.

[00:21:59] Cause we were like 3000 hours behind you. You understand? 

[00:22:01] Dan Mcpherson: We got to go, go, go. Right. So, 

[00:22:03] Kris Ward: so it’s not an energetically. Not a great place to be in it. And they sense that even if you think you’re hiding it right. 

[00:22:10] Dan Mcpherson: And I, as I looked at it and I also realized I assessed the percentage of my time that I was spending doing the things that I was best at should be doing, drove the business forward.

[00:22:19] And at that point in time, this is really sad. It was 5%. 

[00:22:23] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:22:24] Dan Mcpherson: And so when you’re spending one out of every 20 hours, doing the things that move your business forward, and 19 of them doing other things you’re missing everywhere that you can be. And by the end of this year, I’ll be at over 75%. You never really get to a hundred, right?

[00:22:38] There’s there are things that need to be done, things that you’re not going to fully avoid, but I’ll be at 75. And I tell people to target two thirds of their time, at least. And if they can get there, they’re going to have a very effective rhythm. 

[00:22:53] Kris Ward: Yeah. And you know what? You sound like a very smart numbers guy.

[00:22:56] And so you’re really able to break that down where most of us just get so lost in the crazy that you can’t see straight. Right. And then you just constantly feel like you’re moving further and further away the goal is. And at some point you don’t even know what the plans are. So I think it’s, I mean, obviously you’re really articulate with that type of stuff.

[00:23:14] I try to give examples all the time and, you know, we just think somehow under the world of entrepreneur, that we’re this magical. Unicorn that’s different, but you know, like when you’re building a house, you know, you know that the contractor doesn’t try to learn how to do electricity and do this and do that and sell it.

[00:23:31] And, you know, he doesn’t take on all these things. The house would never get built. It would take years and years and years nevermind learning it. Even if he knew how to be electrician and a carpenter, him doing one thing at a time, you know, would delay that, sell selling of that house, which means that delays the next project, which delays the business.

[00:23:47] And so you might sell one house in three years, which doesn’t sustain a business, right? We know that, but when it’s you behind the desk, I always thought I could go longer, harder, faster, get up earlier and make up for it. 

[00:23:59] Dan Mcpherson: Yeah. It’s a very common conception. And one that I dealt with as well, right. Is if I just push harder, I will get there.

[00:24:06] But it all comes back to what you said earlier, which is understanding our own value. One of the first conversations I have with many of my clients is to help them connect with their own value. I don’t know that I have a client that would say, or, or after we have the conversation would say that they were worth less than $50 an hour.

[00:24:25] And once you start doing that, you ask, okay. Is, is this task worth $50 an hour because that’s what I’m actually spending. If I go spend five hours on something, I just spent $250 or in my case, I would put that number higher. But if that’s the case and you say is that five hours is what I’m going to get out of it worth two 50, the then, and the answer is no.

[00:24:46] Then you have to do something to find a different solution, to put them on the right path. 

[00:24:51] Kris Ward: Yeah. And I just recently read a book by Larry Brownton and it’s called victory. And one of the, the things that he says in there, which was so obvious when he said it, I was embarrassed. I hadn’t realized this earlier and what he said leads to cause he’s all about teams as well.

[00:25:04] And like he says a couple, many wise things and one is, he says, he’s never seen it. Very seldom the CC football game, where the ball gets down to, you know, Crosses the finish line on the other end, listen to my football terms. Everybody pay attention, write down my football terms. Do they get to the finish line by themselves?

[00:25:23] Right. And so he says that, but the other thing he talks about is the fact that burnout and all that stress as entrepreneur comes from. From when you are operating out of your zone of genius, like 60, 70, 80% of the time, because that’s stuff that wears you down. It’s because it’s, these are the things you shouldn’t be doing and they’re beneath your skill set and you’re trying to burn through them.

[00:25:43] They’re not the things that light you up. And so therefore you just burn yourself out quicker in all these areas that are not your element of expertise. 

[00:25:52] Dan Mcpherson: Yeah, this is one of the big reasons why so many entrepreneurs fail is because they try to do it themselves. They try to do the things that aren’t best for them to be doing, and then don’t do the things that would move their business forward and light them up.

[00:26:04] I agree completely with that. And for me, that’s a lot of where I got to write. Once I realized this, I was in pretty deep, I was also in a financial spot. We’re looking around and saying, well, cool. I’m just going to go hire a full time person. Wasn’t really a practical way. So I had to take a different approach to it.

[00:26:23] And I I’ve since taught a portion of this approach, but the more revised version that we get to later to a number of my clients, and I recognize I did recognize a core truth. That’s really important, which is that if you are doing something that has value in the world, which each of us should be like, if we’re, if we’re entrepreneurs, we’re doing something that makes us light up, there are some other people that are our fans that light us up.

[00:26:50] Then you will have people who want to contribute to that. Cause who want to be part of that cause who are drawn to you. And so often entrepreneurs are like, I’m alone. That’s all there is. So one, one night I put out a Facebook post. It was, it was out of desperation, honestly. And it was me saying, I need help.

[00:27:09] And I need somebody who can do all the things. And this is where I made one of my mistakes, uh, is that I need somebody who can do all the things and this isn’t going to be a salary position, but you’ll have, you’ll have an opportunity to have a percent of revenue of the business. So it was short term going to be easier for me, longterm going to be harder, but.

[00:27:29] I wanted to find somebody. And I honestly, I threw it out there. Not knowing if anyone would respond by morning. I had seven responses for people who wanted to do it because they said, we love what you’re doing. We see what you’re doing. We want to be part of that. And I was able to do interviews and go down, go down that path.

[00:27:46] Now this goes down. The rest of this is a difficult path before it gets better, 

[00:27:53] Kris Ward: but that’s how we started. Okay. So let’s put pause there. So I do see some landmines coming ahead. I don’t know the story, but I’m going to suspect a couple of things. Um, so one is there the, the common mistake that so many people make is trying to get literally Jack of all trades in another person.

[00:28:10] When we know it doesn’t work for us, that’s what failed with us and Jack of all trades. So then you decide, well, okay, I’m not super human, but somehow I’m going to get a super human at a very affordable price and you dilute their skillset and add stress and make mistakes. And that if I can pause for a second, that’s the big, the big bridge, the big gap between old school and the modern days.

[00:28:32] Cause the old school, when you did hire somebody in house, And you’re like, okay, I only need this person for six hours a week, but who’s going to come in for six hours a week. So then we’re going to have to fill another six or 10 hours a week of stuff that they’re not here for, just so we can pay them and keep them.

[00:28:46] That’s where it gets costly and the overhead and all this stuff. Bye. But now with outsourcing, you can have somebody that comes in, it comes through you virtually for four hours a week and you’re just rocking it out. Like that’s the amazing part. Right. But you made a mistake that many make and you tried to get all in one.

[00:29:03] And so I’m. Expecting that didn’t you didn’t that wasn’t a roaring success, is that right? No, 

[00:29:09] Dan Mcpherson: no. It was a, it was a flaming failure. And, and what I will say is it’s all my fault. Like nobody, it’s it wasn’t, it wasn’t the people’s fault. It wasn’t them. I had spent my life leading teams of up to 2000. I’d also led teams in really small companies with limited resources, but I’d always joined when I was leading a team.

[00:29:30] What I had never done was start somewhere where I was on my own. And then had to figure out how to transition those things to a team. You see, I underestimated the transition between the two where I’ve got all this knowledge in my head. I have all these things in my head that I’m doing. And now not only do I have to hire somebody, but when I do it, doesn’t magically get better.

[00:29:52] Somehow they have to get the knowledge to be able to do what I need them to do. And. I didn’t do a good job of communicating that. And because I didn’t have a plan, I didn’t have it laid out to say, okay, here are the eight things that you need to do. And here’s the time I have set aside to give you this information.

[00:30:09] I was more like, Hey, cool. You can do everything. We’ll assume that that’s accurate. I wanted, I, man, I care most about people. People matter most and relationships are everything. And I believe leadership is all about people. I screwed up. I set that up. I’m up to fail and it broke my 

[00:30:26] Kris Ward: heart. I know, but here’s the thing, at least you were smart enough to go, okay.

[00:30:31] That didn’t work. And then you figured out and course corrected and stuff. And I see this all the time and it’s just, it’s like watching, I don’t know, a car veer off the highway in a snow storm or something like that. You just like, Oh, you’re watching this, this train wreck that’s about to have. And I’ll say to people like you, you know, it’s not gonna work.

[00:30:49] Like they’ll say, okay. I’m okay. Somebody will say to me, Oh, my business is going pretty good. Uh, I’ve been in business two years at whatever, and I’m not good at marketing. So I’m going to hire an outsource and to do all my marketing, but they haven’t even found their voice yet. Like they have to work with a marketing strategist to find their voice, but that’s an even bigger ticket items.

[00:31:07] So maybe not a great example, but that happens all the time where you just somehow think this person is going to have this brain. I don’t know. I’d like to see them. 

[00:31:16] Dan Mcpherson: We’re just gonna, mind-meld take it off. And magically do it, but then 

[00:31:20] Kris Ward: that’s not even accurate because you don’t have it in you, your brain, like you don’t have the strategy, you know what I mean?

[00:31:24] So that happens all the time. You know what? I used to see this in old school before we were less virtual is I would see it in restaurant owners. So somebody, somebody says, okay, I want to open a restaurant, whether I’m a chef or I’ve always wanted to open a restaurant, then they opened the restaurant.

[00:31:40] Right. They’re running around like an insane person night and day, day and night. So then after a while that they go, well, this isn’t working cause I’m killing myself. Like you can’t work to two o’clock in the morning, come back in for lunch. Fine. So then they say, Oh, I’ll hire a manager. So then they bring the manager in, but they don’t have any products or systems or anything like that.

[00:31:59] And so then the manager is just running around, trying to react like they’re reacting. And they’re like, well, this isn’t working, I’m paying somebody and things are not getting more done. Right. Because the manager can’t parent up, they can’t tell the owner what to do. Right. I was actually in a restaurant once I went in, it was a client many years ago.

[00:32:16] And it was a very fancy restaurant. One of these restaurants where the plate is pretty, but you leave hungry. Right, right, right. And it was like a, a spring day where yesterday had been worn. But today it was really cold. It was in Canada and the air conditioning was on and it w walked in and the second you walked in, it was.

[00:32:34] Blasting. And it was cold and people were with their coats on for these very expensive salads. And I said to the lady, the owner what’s going on and the person who came in every day that opened the lunch shift was home sick. And they didn’t know how to shut off the air conditioner. So somebody they paid, like, I don’t know, like the, the server, the head server everyday wasn’t yeah, the management was, he was the only one that knew how to shut this off.

[00:32:59] And she had a restaurant of people furious leaving. Cause these were not low, they were not hamburgers. Right. So that’s a very exciting. Simple example of that policy definitely cost them money. Like she had to give money back. She had to be buying desserts and a desserts are very expensive. Like it wasn’t just pie.

[00:33:16] It was all fancy caramelly team material as Sue’s stuff. Right. So that’s a really simple example, but you get people on and then you don’t have a process. You don’t have clarity, you don’t have a routine and you got the tail wagging the dog. 

[00:33:28] Dan Mcpherson: Right. And I ended up. Where I was overwhelmed, but just in a different way.

[00:33:33] Right. I, I w I trained leadership and I was being a bad leader. I wasn’t communicating well, all I was trying still to do all the things, because I hadn’t been able to transition them over when I did transition them over. I didn’t have the systems just like you talked about. And it ended up being very upsetting because I let my team down and that’s not something I’m accustomed to.

[00:33:53] And it’s something that broke my heart, but it also stalled my business and that. That was in some ways, worse than worse for me than not having brought the people in, in the first place, because I may have been making slower progress than I wanted before, but I was progressing and now I’d set myself up in some ways to get my hopes up and then go backwards.

[00:34:14] Kris Ward: And amplify your failures now, even audience naturally more people down. I used to just let myself, I used to just cry silently alone in my office, late at night, but now I have people around me where I’m trying not to make them cry. So it does, but at least, you know, clearly you found your way. Cause a lot of people then come back and say, or what do you call enemy?

[00:34:34] Or it’s hard to find good help or blah, blah. It’s easier to do myself. And that is what cripples them. And they’re why they’re out of business in five years or struggling and suffering for the next. Right. 

[00:34:44] Dan Mcpherson: Yeah, I agree. Completely. I think ownership is everything. One of my favorite books is extreme ownership by Jocko Willink.

[00:34:49] And it’s really just clear that I’m 100% in control of me and that, that I have a responsibility for my team and I have a responsibility for my business and it, it doesn’t go anywhere in that sense, but me. So what happened is late in the year, last year, I. Just paused and I stopped and I said, what do I need to do?

[00:35:15] And I asked a question that I liked that I gained from the Tim Ferriss show a number of years ago, which is what would it look like if it were easy? Yeah. And I recognize that one of the mistakes I’ve made you already called out, which was that I’d tried to get somebody to do everything. Yeah. I’d also put all my eggs in one basket.

[00:35:33] If that person didn’t work out or wasn’t the right spot, it wasn’t there. Then even though they had an opportunity to make a really significant amount of money, I was setting them up to fail and that wasn’t okay. So I then laid down and said, well, what would it look like? And I laid out a structure to say, what.

[00:35:49] People do I need, what are the things that I really need done? And how long will it really take on a weekly basis to do those things? And I recognized that I needed a much larger and your team. We have pretty big goals. We’re doing some significant yep. Things, but I needed a much larger team than I realized, but I needed a team of specialists in many ways.

[00:36:09] I also. Was reaffirmed that I needed people who were passionate about what we were doing and where we were going. And I believe that if you’re going to have a high performance team, you have to have high level passionate people and that, so 

[00:36:22] Kris Ward: be over skill set every time, 

[00:36:24] Dan Mcpherson: every time, every time, character and personality completely.

[00:36:27] I’m all about that. And so I went to my team and I, and I, I went to the team that I had and I said, look, guys, I did it wrong. And that was a, that was a. Tough conversation. I said, look, I did it wrong. I’ve said, I’ve set you up to fail. I’ve done some things that are not great. I’ve been a bad leader and here’s how it’s going to change.

[00:36:46] And we started changing and much like many things that are right when it clicks into place, you can feel the resonance. And the second that we started moving forward and finding people that were. Now 10 or 15 hours a week, that we’re specialists in a certain area that each one of them I could give them their lag and lead measures.

[00:37:04] If anyone likes the four disciplines of execution, I could give the them each a clear goal and a clear mission so they could know, Oh, this is success. This is not, they could, I can communicate with them as a team in a much more powerful and different way, and that we could develop an individual system.

[00:37:22] Is that related to each one of them, everything changed. 

[00:37:26] Kris Ward: So we have like about a minute left. So what in all this fascination that you’ve been so wonderful about sharing with us and been so open and honest, and this is such a learning process. It, and so awakening for me and my audience to hear this, because this is the stuff that people hide in the darkness and the shame of their own home office and stuff.

[00:37:44] What would you give us as the biggest takeaway of, Hey, you know, if you just get this one thing, things will be better for you. 

[00:37:53] Dan Mcpherson: Can I give a couple of real quick here. So, first is find somebody fast, find somebody early and find that right. The second is find the right people who are passionate about you and they exist, even if you don’t believe they do.

[00:38:08] And the piece that really binds all of that. Together is to make sure that you have people do it, the right things that are clearly defined. So they understand what success is and isn’t, and now you have committed people who are amazing, who know what they’re doing and what they need to do, and your life will be dramatically better.

[00:38:28] Kris Ward: I agree, a hundred percent. I tell people all the time, you can change your business and your life by starting a team. And now we know what, like you said, it doesn’t all magically happen overnight, but you, you know, there’s a lot of supports out there, myself included that can help you start that team really effectively, but more importantly, Is he a stumble a little bit and you might have to course correct, but it sure is how it beats doing it on your own for the next 10, 12 years crying into your coffee.

[00:38:53] So Dan you’ve been wonderful. Where can people get more of you? 

[00:38:59] Dan Mcpherson: I I’ve really enjoyed being here and sharing, and I hope that it’s been helpful. You can find me at leader’s muscly.com and also the dreams are real podcasts. Those are the, those are my two primary spaces and I’d love to connect with everybody.

[00:39:14] Kris Ward: Okay, Dan, thank you so much again, check it out. Check on his podcast. Dreams are real. That just sounds like a, that sounds like a really enjoyable podcast. Is you sort of on a, when you’re driving somewhere that would, I have my podcasts in different categories. So that sounds like a good call podcasts.

[00:39:31] Okay. See you guys on the next episode. This is Chris ward. When the hour, when the day talk to you soon.