SEO Isn’t Dead. AI Changed Authority! with Ross Dunn

Episode Summary

You can find Ross Dunn at:
Website: https://www.stepforth.com/

Ross Dunn Podcast Interview

[00:00:00] Kris Ward: Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Win The Hour Win The Day, and I am your host, Kris Ward. And today in the house we have Ross Dunn and he is SEO expert. And Oh, I know there’s a lot of SEO conversation slash nonsense going on right now. So Ross is going to help us understand what’s happening and shed some light on it.

Because listen, it just seems like hysteria out there, Ross, it seems like the sky is falling and nobody understands what’s going on. SEO’s dead, not dead, and it’s mayhem and chaos. So where do we start, se where do we start, Ross, where should we start? 

[00:00:34] Ross Dunn: I know what you mean. And in fact, we had to reschedule this one time ’cause I was so convoluted with ideas and thoughts that I just couldn’t even get it out.

It’s a real thing. There’s just too much going on. But when it comes right down to it, AI is not really, it’s not a new form of SEO. Okay. It’s just, it’s SEO, right? Think of Google. So for if we’re on Google and we’re doing [00:01:00] our research and we’re using AI, let’s say you’re using either AI mode or you’re just doing a search and you’re getting some responses that are AI based, think of Google as an kinda like a super smart librarian who reads all the books before recommending which ones to show you. Okay. Okay. Instead of just matching keywords like the old card catalog system, sorry, anyone who doesn’t know what we’re talking about.. 

[00:01:24] Kris Ward: The 18 hundreds. Yes, go ahead. 

[00:01:26] Ross Dunn: AI now understands what you’re really asking, and then synthesizes that information from multiple sources and pulls ’em together into one answer.

This means, and this is where it really comes down to the brass tacks that your website needs to be written for this smart assistant, not just for keyword matching. 

[00:01:47] Kris Ward: Okay. So what’s the difference? 

[00:01:49] Ross Dunn: Yeah. Yeah. I’m gonna have to, you’re gonna have to be able to pull me back here. If I get too technic.. 

[00:01:55] Kris Ward: I’ll stop you.

[00:01:56] Ross Dunn: Thank you. [00:02:00] Oftentimes when we were writing content on the website, we were going, okay, I want to get this keyword ranking. So we were creating a piece of content that was targeting that keyword phrase. 

Okay. 

Or keyword phrase. What do you wanna call it? Now you need to, first of all, the best part about all this is it’s making you right for people, not for search engine.

[00:02:18] Kris Ward: Ah, okay. Okay.

[00:02:20] Ross Dunn: That’s one thing I love about this. It’s one really big plus of this AI push because you really are writing to be understood. And the only difference, and this part is not the greatest, but is that AI seems to like a certain structure, okay? It likes you to lead with, too long, didn’t read a little bit of a snippet that it can just go, okay, this is what this is gonna be about, and then break it into chunks, the content.

Okay, so simply put… 

[00:02:49] Kris Ward: which isn’t just AI, let me jump in, because we’re all taught that now, if we’re putting content on LinkedIn, and it has to be in little bites, you can’t have a big long paragraph, right? Because I say people are reading [00:03:00] with their thumbnail scroll, right? So it needs to be scannable.

It for us as humans and for the computer as well. 

[00:03:07] Ross Dunn: E Exactly. Yeah. Okay. The only thing that, the downside I was alluding to is that probably everyone’s gonna start writing this way and it could look a little too formulaic. 

[00:03:16] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:03:17] Ross Dunn: I was, I actually just wrote an article about this, but the idea is whatever you do, try to keep your own voice.

Oh, okay. Don’t get too robotic about it. ’cause that’s gonna bite you in the butt later. People are gonna just scan through this and go, oh, that’s an AI article. It. It’s gonna feel like that, right? Know. Okay, 

[00:03:33] Kris Ward: hold on. There’s so much to talk about here. 

[00:03:35] Ross Dunn: I know 

[00:03:35] Kris Ward: one thing I wanna say is. When you’re first using AI, now people are screaming, don’t just use AI as something to make a, whatever a blog better, right?

It’s not Grammarly fine, but it is, you’re like, oh, I got this half written. And AI can tweak it up. And when you look at it with your own judgment, you think, oh, this does sound better than me. And you don’t realize sometimes that you lost your voice, right? But where I really am now is, [00:04:00] this is in my face.

As we find, hired, onboard virtual assistants and put them in our leadership program. And then I will see now when we’re looking at the cover letter, based on what I put in the job post, we’re looking at the cover letter and I’m starting to see almost some of them are almost exactly the same, and I know they’re not, it’s oh, you gave AI this job post and they’re giving me this response.

So does it look polished? And it well written, but it’s boring and it’s coming up again and again. So there’s no personality there. So that’s the hard part, is you can be seduced into thinking that AI’s writing better than you are. But when it sounds like everybody else, it doesn’t work.

[00:04:40] Ross Dunn: And it’s too obvious too, like the poor M dash, I actually really enjoyed using the… 

[00:04:45] Kris Ward: I know I used to use it all the time and I didn’t even know what it was called. I didn’t even, I just thought I meant it. I didn’t even know it was an M dash and now you are banned against all humanity.

Oh my Lord. But I use that all the time, not an anymore. 

[00:04:56] Ross Dunn: It is not easy to get rid of either. Yeah. They just joked about [00:05:00] how happy open AI is that they finally got it to stop doing it. It’s that’s crazy. But anyway, tangent. So content, when you’re writing content, use chunks.

So get to a heading, heading one is the title, then heading two is, okay. Each of the heading twos are essentially the main components of the article, and then underneath the heading, just explain. What you’re talking about, maybe link to a supporting article on your site. 

[00:05:28] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:05:28] Ross Dunn: This is the hub and spoke approach.

[00:05:31] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:05:31] Ross Dunn: So you’re talking about one thing, but you’ve got supporting articles that can add depth when everyone need

[00:05:35] Kris Ward: Oh, okay. 

[00:05:36] Ross Dunn: And find out and start off simple and you can expand. Exactly. Yeah. And it’s. Wow. It is ever rewarding that helps sEO that helps. So search engine rankings, I should say.

Okay. That helps AI overviews getting you in there. There’s a whole number of things that it does that helps and it really just makes sense to search engines in AI when you break it up like this. [00:06:00] 

[00:06:00] Kris Ward: And I think to an earlier point you made too, is we start writing for humans back in the 18 hundreds.

Boys and girls. Now also, I live in a small town, so God help us. We still get a phone book every year with little baby yellow pages and everything. It’s very cute, right? But back in the 18 hundreds and you look something up in the phone book, it would be like, Hey, is pizza under pee for pizza? Or R for restaurant?

You know what I mean? And so you were thinking as how are things sorted? And same thing when you’re looking for something online. You’re like, okay, what do we call this? I know what I want, but what is this called online? And I think to your point now, we’re saying like, it is what it is and start addressing things to what people are calling it instead of fancying marketing terms.

Another conversation I had instead of saying pricing, it’s like, how much does this cost?

[00:06:47] Ross Dunn: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:06:47] Kris Ward: That’s the simplicity you’re talking about. 

[00:06:50] Ross Dunn: Yeah. Very simple. Okay. Very simple, very clear. And, link to authoritative sources. Okay? If you’re saying a quote or you’re providing some sort of stat, make [00:07:00] sure you link to something authoritative that backs that up.

[00:07:02] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:07:03] Ross Dunn: It ver it rewards you for this. Is that simple. But the other thing, and this is so important, and this has started years ago, but it’s very important now, is your expertise. Okay. Very few people understand that. How important it is that AI Google was the same way, but AI needs to understand that you’re an expert.

[00:07:26] Kris Ward: Okay. And how do we do that? Do. 

[00:07:28] Ross Dunn: That, that requires having one canonical or one main page that you link everything to saying, this is me, this is my bio, this has my education, this has the content I’ve written. These are the social profiles that are me. This is me. And then all of those places link back to this page too, whenever possible.

Whenever you can control that. And what happens 

[00:07:49] Kris Ward: like a dashboard. Or a website? 

[00:07:51] Ross Dunn: You can do a website. I think everyone really should have their own little personal website. Even if they have, they work at a company. Like for example, I have ross [00:08:00] dunn.com and that’s my about site. That’s all it is.

Oh, okay. This is who I am. These are my qualifications, this is my expertise. I was on this podcast, 

[00:08:07] Kris Ward: so that be, you wouldn’t just have that in your own website on an about us page. 

[00:08:12] Ross Dunn: You can. Okay. You can do that as well. If you’re an employee, that’s not a good idea. And this is 

[00:08:16] Kris Ward: right, of course. Okay. But we’re talking to small business owners, that’s our audience.

So small business owners, would I put the, would I have a smaller version of my website or, and that it’s my digital footprint. 

[00:08:28] Ross Dunn: You want to have one.

[00:08:29] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:08:30] Ross Dunn: Yeah. One if possible. In my case, I own multiple companies, so I figured having a single site, okay. That was connected. 

[00:08:36] Kris Ward: But for most of us, we can leave it on our website then.

[00:08:38] Ross Dunn: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I’ll leave it on your website, but just make sure everything links to it. So if you’re x.com or whatever account has a link, instead of linking to your website, link to your about page. 

[00:08:49] Kris Ward: Okay, so let me see if I get this correctly. In the past I thought the about me page was just, so here’s her face.

This is, yeah. Yeah. She’s a chick you saw on LinkedIn or whatever. But now what you’re [00:09:00] saying is it’s really significantly important for me to have almost like my profile page on my website. Here’s everything about me collected in one spot. To add validity and value and substance there versus before it was just like, Hey, if you’re wondering who I am, here’s a quick little thing.

Like I was the afterthought. I was like the glossary notes before, but now you’re like, no, this is a whole thing. 

[00:09:23] Ross Dunn: It is. Yeah. And it makes sense if you think about it. AI is and Google was already dealing with this is inundated with supposed experts. 

And it has to figure out, is this really something I want to provide people?

Oh, okay, I’m giving, I’m using my reputation here. Should I be telling people to go to the site? So it’s trying to figure out, are you an expert? And if it goes to these pages and it can see that you have these qualifications. It’s important, but there are, there is markup, there’s stuff behind it that has to be done.

Okay. So definitely, use your webmaster unless you want to dig into this yourself and add the schema. Okay. It’s a schema markup, it’s called, it’s very important. It tells you that these are the same as you, same as me, same as, same as, same as, okay. Yeah. It’s part of the underlying foundation of AI.

Okay. Is that important? 

[00:10:13] Kris Ward: So that then when they’re on my website, Win The Hour Win The Day, it’s fine. But what we really wanna know is who is Kris Ward and that the, all these things, all the podcasts I’ve been on, and LinkedIn and posts and blogs, that here’s the one page, ah, almost like if you’re looking at somebody like, Hey, I saw that guy in a movie.

What was that again? And you look the actor up and then you’re like, there’s everything about them. They’re all their credentials. Here’s the TV shows, the movies, whatever that person was on. All on one page. And now we need to show that it’s not their job to go and grab some stuff off page two of my website and then go to LinkedIn and then go to your website.

’cause I was on your podcast. It’s like we wanna have that easy served on a platter for them on one page. 

[00:10:55] Ross Dunn: Exactly. Okay. Crystal clear and updated as he thinks. I’m on this [00:11:00] po I’m on this podcast. Once that’s live, I’m gonna make sure that there’s a link from that site to this saying this is me as well.

[00:11:06] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:11:06] Ross Dunn: And it shows life. It shows that there’s a, a organism here, there’s something of importance. Okay. Although as soon as AI starts thinking of this as organisms, I’m gonna get very scared. But anyway, okay, 

[00:11:18] Kris Ward: let’s one thing at a time here, Ross. Let’s stay focused. 

[00:11:21] Ross Dunn: Yes. Focused. Focused.

Yeah. It’s quite fascinating. This is, authorship was a thing that came out years ago from Google, but it has all of a sudden, it has over the years been trying to build. It’s understanding of you based on your expertise. Authoritiveness and trustworthiness, they called that eat, but you added experience at the beginning of that.

So it’s EEAT. 

[00:11:43] Kris Ward: Okay. 

[00:11:44] Ross Dunn: Very important. But then there’s also the underlying stuff. SEO, people are throwing it out, like maybe the bath water service. They’re like, ah, all this AI stuff, I’ll just use AI. There’s no need. I do to do all this SEO. But every single expert. [00:12:00] Even Google has said no. Don’t do that.

SEO is still everything. That’s Yeah. It’s helping AI and everyone understand it. 

[00:12:08] Kris Ward: Yeah. 

[00:12:09] Ross Dunn: Their content. Be careful. Yeah. There’s a lot of fear mongering going on that you should just abandon this stuff and it’s deadly if you do

[00:12:18] Kris Ward: yeah, and I don’t know much about SEO for stuff for sure. And I do think as a topic, it seems dry and, oh, I’d sooner, like SEO and taxes to me go on the same line.

And just what? What? Every time you think you wanna learn about SEO, there’s more to learn. It’s just horrendous. But. It just, everything doesn’t blow up overnight. My basic knowledge of it is SEO isn’t dead. It’s just perhaps the order of it has changed. So instead of me going to Google, look, I was looking at doing, possibly going on a trip.

Possibly do, my team says they’ve seen it on tv, they’ve seen other people talk about it and they’re like, Kris, I’ve seen people take real vacations. Not that I don’t, [00:13:00] ’cause I’m all about that, but my family comes to visit me. I go visit them and I love it all but it, you don’t come back rested.

That’s what I’m here to tell you. So anyhow, I’m contemplating looking to go to Greece to do some paddle boarding in the spring. Fine. And so I would’ve been in and out of all these sites on Google, but then I went to chat and said, here’s what I’m looking for. And they pulled up the sites from Google. So like your, to your point, I just had a really organized librarian that just saved me time. Instead of me doing it, it collected, but it still needs all that content, all that SEO stuff, because the information eventually came from the same place. It just did it faster for me. I had a very lovely assistant. 

[00:13:41] Ross Dunn: Exactly, and what it’s solving is the top of funnel.

So if you’re thinking about your funnel in marketing, you’re losing some of the traffic that used to come to your website for people who were doing informational research, okay. At top of funnel. But when I get down to the middle and bottom where they’re about to make a decision, they’re coming to your [00:14:00] website, they’re going to make that decision.

Unless you’re send selling widgets that are $2, then fine, you can buy it within AI, people aren’t gonna worry about their. You’re 

[00:14:08] Kris Ward: ‘Cause when they give me that list, then I go to, I check it, oh, that looks good. That looks good. And then I go to the website. So they just gave me a collection, like a folder of information here.

Really like a virtual assistant, saying, Hey, I want you to go research these things for me, and then gimme the top five. So there’s a, so there’s a, perhaps a more efficient middleman middle person. I guess we’re supposed to say middle person and middle person. It sounds like a disorder. It sounds like a diagnosis, but anyhow, 

[00:14:35] Ross Dunn: it does.

[00:14:36] Kris Ward: I don’t know what, I don’t know what the new word is. People write in and tell me what the word should be, but so it’s not that it’s changed, it’s just there’s maybe more people involved for more efficiency. 

[00:14:46] Ross Dunn: Yeah. It. It’s simple in some respects. It’s very convenient. Obviously take whatever you read with a grain of salt.

Yeah. There’s stories abound that, that’s just sometimes it’s so wrong. [00:15:00] Yeah. Yeah. So watch out for those top of funnel informational answers. Yeah. Yeah. Be very bad. 

[00:15:05] Kris Ward: Oh, yeah, Yeah. You can’t you can’t take anything. I saw a quote once and it was something like, Einstein’s Einstein says, you can only believe something like 45% of what on the internet.

Everyone get the joke Einstein. So the point is you do, Ugh. You know what I find shocking? Maybe this is a totally different tangent, but I don’t follow celebrity news or anything like that. But with AI and stuff like that now you’ll see things that are like some 20-year-old and whatever is claiming that they’re living with this celebrity who’s going through a divorce and giving firsthand knowledge and clipping together stuff.

And I’m thinking, oh my gosh, I don’t know what would happen to you if that person sees this. ’cause you could be sued like crazy. But, so it, it does allow people with no expertise to come off as, confident. But anything you have to do your homework. 

[00:15:55] Ross Dunn: Exactly. So offsite signal. One [00:16:00] thing.

So there’s onsite, there’s the optimization of your site, the other site is the offsite. So what is that? People used to do link building and still do. It still has some impact, especially on Google. But the other aspect I wanna make sure I cover is that you need to do the hard work. And this is where you’re gonna stand out from the rest.

Everyone’s gonna be doing all this stuff and doing all these shortcuts and trying to get buy links and all these things, but what’s really gonna stand out is when you obtain earned media. Okay, so people, you want to be interesting enough that people want to interview you, you want to write on industry publications.

All of those places, by the way, should link back to that about page if we, okay, if at all possible. You can’t always control it, but if at all possible.

Sponsor charities or sponsor, do some sponsorships, do some charity support, all the places that you can build some news about. These are all signals that can’t be faked, at least [00:17:00] not very easily. Okay. And they will provide dividends. Again, it is gonna show some life to your bow profile and expertise and authority.

And because it can’t be faked, it’s gonna get more and more power and it’s gonna help you get the visibility you need. Okay. The best part about it is it’s hard work is really what’s gonna pay off everyone’s. One of my things I like to say is that AI everyone says it’s gonna make life easier.

I’ve never worked harder. Yeah. It’s just raised the bar, and everyone gets the superpower. There’s no one super. So we’re at the stage now. But now the superpower is ensuring that you, or the way to leverage it is to, of course, learn how to do it better. Yeah. Perfect your superpowers, but also ensure that you can be found.

Yeah. Ensure that it’s very clear that you are an expert in what you do. 

[00:17:55] Kris Ward: I saw some old TV clipping, I don’t know what old means anymore, but they were showing, I don’t [00:18:00] know. And the whole thing in this was how much time we’re gonna save with email now because we don’t have to make phone calls. You don’t have to go hello and chitchat and all this other stuff.

It was on a TV show from the nineties and it’s the beast of email with its hands around our throat trying to keep on top of it is, you’re right, the world’s going faster and faster, so we have to be more purposeful about how we execute and also just not get derailed by the enormity of it because this SEO thing, it’s okay, everybody calm down. Let’s do one thing at a time. Yeah. 

[00:18:33] Ross Dunn: Exactly and there’s people calling it G-E-O-G-E-O, generative engine optimization or AEO answer engine optimization. It doesn’t matter. It’s all SEO. It’s just we’re, it’s changing. That’s all. And how many times have we changed?

A lot, but this is the biggest change. No, no doubt about it. We have to think about two different types of engines, plus the fact that there are gonna be like two different types of [00:19:00] search. Plus there’s gonna be different engines that do it, and there’s now browsers that act like AI, and it is a lot.

Just be sure that you don’t fall too behind your competitor because if they have some guidance, if they have been reading, if they having on top of this, they’re going to be building a presence that’s stronger than you, that will be hard to beat. Especially if they’re building their expertise and doing that profile work.

[00:19:26] Kris Ward: Okay. That’s a good point. I think we’re all looking at more often than not, most of us looking at how, you can ask Chat this, or you can ask Chat that, but other people on the other end asking about us. And so yes, SEO is not gone. It may be a different conversation or a different order.

We now have the librarian pulling things together. Fantastic. But at the end of the day. If anything, more people are looking for us. ’cause it’s more accessible. You’re not limited to people who are not, say they’re not techie or not good on the [00:20:00] internet or not good at research ’cause that’s being eliminated.

So just, or it’s being more fluid, right? So just being really purposeful about what we look like in those respo, in those searches. 

[00:20:12] Ross Dunn: Yeah. Be very purposeful and build that. Like I was saying about building links, there was one thing about building links, which was an authority builder.

You that did take time to build them to do them properly, but you still could do them. You could buy them if you wanted to. It’s very difficult to buy authority, true authority. And the sooner the better that you start to build that by trying to speak at conferences, to writing a book to, it doesn’t have to be overwhelming like that.

Yeah. But even again, sponsoring or doing some local charity work and getting a link back to your website, ’cause your business donated a bunch of money. Anything sponsoring a business based 

[00:20:50] Kris Ward: or even the things that you have done, like I am certain my book is somewhere on my website for sure, but it’s not the thing we shoved down your throat, but to your point is to have that all in one page.

Here’s my [00:21:00] book, here’s my podcast, here’s all these things. Instead of like you having to do a scavenger hunt and go throughout the house and collect things in different drawers, let’s put them all in the front foyer for you. 

[00:21:09] Ross Dunn: Also, we talked at the beginning about how when you’re writing content on a site, at least up till now, really a lot of people were creating target like content to target a specific keyword.

Now that’s a all bit of a dog’s bre breakfast on everyone’s website. What we’re doing now is, this is Gobbledy Go, sorry, but topical restructuring plan. So essentially we’re saying. We want to take all this consolidate into topics to make it really clear for AI and Google when it’s going through your site now, with these new okay perceptions like this new direction. Okay, so we’re trying to take all this and find the ones that really shouldn’t be where they are and they need to be. Perhaps linked to from that chunked content, and they need to support other pages, there needs to be internal links. It’s not simple, but the value and the, okay the, what you [00:22:00] get back from that effort is huge.

All of a sudden, your site can triple, quadruple the amount of traffic it gets when search engines that are looking for this topical hub and spoke approach look at it and see that they understand it better and you get better visibility. 

[00:22:17] Kris Ward: So to your point, we shouldn’t be pulling away. We should be leaning in and it’s just a matter of saying let’s be really clear on the inventory you have, and it really matters how it’s rolled out or how it’s laid out. So it’s more important now than ever, really. 

[00:22:33] Ross Dunn: It is, yeah. And some sites have done this right from the beginning. Yeah. We’ve been talking about this hub and spoke. It’s like where they call ’em silos. They call ’em a whole different, yeah. There’s a number of different things they call ’em in this industry, but if you’ve been following that, you’re already in a great position.

Okay. And congrats. Big, huge collapse because it’s very rare that people have followed that. But if you’re not, then yeah, you need to do this. And sometimes you’ll find that you’ve got multiple pieces of content, they’re cannibalizing each other. ’cause they’re all trying to target the [00:23:00] same phrase. 

[00:23:01] Kris Ward: Oh, okay.

[00:23:01] Ross Dunn: Those should be consolidated into one. 

Okay. Either one spoke or a hub page. Just being this ultimate page, talking about all about that one topic. We did that the other day. 

[00:23:13] Kris Ward: So does that mean like you would have. I don’t know. Let’s, I don’t know. Let’s, we find hiring and board virtual assistants for entrepreneurs.

So would we have a page about, instead of having different things that, blogs or this, or podcasts, maybe one page where here’s a myth about having a virtual assistant. Do you mean pulling it together like that? 

[00:23:32] Ross Dunn: Yeah. You might have a number of articles you’ve done over the years about myths. Yeah, about hiring a virtual assistant.

All of those are trying to rank for the same thing. So you’re gonna want consolidate them all into one master article. Make sure all the old URLs those had are redirected to that one. Okay. In case you built any links to them. And holy smokes, the difference it can make is oh staggering. ’cause all of a sudden you’ve got all that authority and everything pointed to that one article that really has become AI [00:24:00] gold.

It’s okay answering everything they want. 

[00:24:03] Kris Ward: Okay. And now my head’s exploding because does that mean over the years we, I guess we have to be careful and say here’s the three things we talk about the most. The most, the myths, maybe the how much it costs or whatever. ’cause now we don’t wanna have 50 pages on our website with these things we correlated.

Like this is a theme for this page, theme for that page. So we have to clean up the inventory and decide what’s gonna go there and then have them all condensed. Did any of that make sense? ’cause I lost, I stopped listening to myself. Did you? 

[00:24:33] Ross Dunn: You lost me a little bit there.

I got lost. It’s, it isn’t simple. Okay. I literally spent a hundred hours trying to build something that can automate this for a big client of ours. It is very heady is a lot to try and process in your head, but Okay. If you wanna look up tools that can do it, can help you or even ask AI to try doing it for you.

You can say, can you do A-A-S-E-O cannibalization report on my [00:25:00] website. 

[00:25:00] Kris Ward: Oh, Lord. Okay. That sounds violent. Okay. 

[00:25:03] Ross Dunn: Yeah, it doesn’t it? And it will it should inherently understand what that is. You can even say act as an SEO and run this report. I can’t guarantee by any stretch of the imagination that what you’re gonna get is gonna be very useful, but you never know.

Okay. Every time AI runs, and this is the hardest part about doing any kind of optimization for it it’s running for the first time. You can ask the same thing 10 minutes later, it’s gonna give you a different result. It’s bizarre, okay. Oh my gosh. 

[00:25:33] Kris Ward: I think even, at least I always say, even if we just understand what the problem is, whether we can fix it or not, it’s oh, then you stop chasing rainbows and unicorns.

So now you’re like, okay, it’s not dead, and some of it’s gonna take a lot of work, but here’s what we’re looking for and let’s slow down and do one thing at a time. Versus abandoning it and thinking SEO is dead and buried. Dead. Yeah. Yeah. That’s crazy. That must make you nuts. Okay. Alright.

[00:25:57] Ross Dunn: Oh, every time. I’ve heard it thousands of times, [00:26:00] I think now.

[00:26:00] Kris Ward: Ross, where can people find more of your brilliance? 

[00:26:04] Ross Dunn: Oh, thank you. Stepforth.com. Okay. That’s S-T-E-P-F-O-R-T-H.com, and I do a lot of writing right now on SEO grock.com. Okay. That’s S-E-O-G-R-O K.com. 

[00:26:15] Kris Ward: Okay. Alright. Head this off the show to business, but I do not have them bang around by themselves.

There is lots of clarity here. We definitely we need it at these times. So thank you again, Ross. Thank you and we’ll see you in the next episode. 

[00:26:29] Ross Dunn: Cheers.